The following is the transcript of a phone conversation between Renee Martin and Joseph Kerekes. This call took place while Kerekes was being held at the Virginia Beach jail. This is termed transcript #98 by the Luzerne County District Attorneys Office:
RENEE MARTIN: Hypothetically?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Mmm, hmm.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay.
JOSEPH KEREKES: And Harlow already knows this hypothetical too and ah, that was what we called ah, ya know the ah, Plan B, ya know?
RENEE MARTIN: Okay. What I'm saying though Joe is when you get up there to see your attorney, and you talk to Brewer, okay? You need to tell him nothing but the truth because the only way that Brewer can defend you is if he knows the truth because what will happen is, and let me explain this to you, okay cause this is just the way the court system works okay?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Mmm, hmm.
RENEE MARTIN: If you tell Brewer a lie, and Brewer tries to defend you on a lie, okay, he's not gonna be able to do it because he's gonna get caught up in catch 22's and he's not coinciding with the statements, ya know what I'm saying? Just things that were said....
JOSEPH KEREKES: Well let me just say this, hypothetically it was done in such a way that there would be no hypo... ya know proof of anything other than what I just hypothetically put, put forth.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, but, my problem is, hypothetically who could have been there prior to this young gentlemen showing up there?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Oh, what I just said is completely... the hypothetical but the umm, probable truth.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, but what I'm saying is, is that...
JOSEPH KEREKES: Oh, you, you, you mean, you mean the ah, unknown 'person that may have hypothetically hurt this person?
RENEE MARTIN: That's correct.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Okay, I wouldn't know about that, because umm, ya know, hypothetically this is all that ya know that I know.
RENEE MARTIN: I know, but that's what I'm saying is, is and what they're, that's what I'm saying, the only thing I'm telling you is when you get up there and Harlow needs to do the same thing, okay?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Mmm, hmm.
RENEE MARTIN: You need to work on a basis with your attorney. I'm not telling you with anybody else, but with your attorney on a basis of, total truth okay? You need to explain to him from get go A to Z exactly what went on, what transpired. . . .
JOSEPH KEREKES: Yea.
RENEE MARTIN: ... what transpired. Do you see what I'm saying?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Well, well why isn't Harlow calling is he with Brice now?
RENEE MARTIN: Yea, yea, he's with Brice now.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Well how do you know that?
RENEE MARTIN: Umm, because I talked to Jim Brice and he said he was going in to see Harlow, he'd call me back.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Okay cool, cool.
RENEE MARTIN: So all I'm saying though is, is that you and Harlow are gonna screw yourself out of an adequate defense but not telling your attorney, not anybody else. . .
JOSEPH KEREKES: By telling him that hypothetical and whatever story I just told you is pretty much the truth, it is the truth.
RENEE MARTIN: Well all I'm saying is, is they're gonna wanna know, I mean, hypothetically was the house on fire when you got there, or when this person got there?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Yes he did see, he smelled, he walked in and then he saw that, yes.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay.
JOSEPH KEREKES: It was very small, is what he, hypothetically.
RENEE MARTIN: Hypothetically when both people, was this when both people drove up or when...
JOSEPH KEREKES: No, no, why do you keep bringing this... he said he heard a sound upstairs hypothetically in this story, and that also umm scared him and he ran out.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay. So person B never actually went all the way into the home?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Person B, you mean who?
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, ah, the, the gentlemen visiting, hypothetically visiting. .
JOSEPH KEREKES: Never, no, no, hypothetically he walked right into where this person was and got scared, he saw the fire, smelled the smoke and heard a loud noise upstairs and ran out.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, now what I'm saying is, is where was person A, while person B was inside?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Umm, I don't know.
RENEE MARTIN: Hypothetically.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Hypothetically there, there, see Renee this is where we don't understand each other because there isn't one, hypothetically.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, there is A and B, A and B went to Pennsylvania, hypothetically.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Okay yea A, Oh A, A being the older one?
RENEE MARTIN: Yea.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Yea that person A, A, at the motel umm, ya know watching television.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, so hypothetically A was at the hotel while this whol'e thing transpired?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Absolutely.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay so hypothetically you don't know that B didn't commit any kind of crime?
JOSEPH KEREKES: That's, that's sorta true, yea, that's true hypothetically I don't know for sure.
RENEE MARTIN: No, no, no, not you.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Hypothetically the, the, the older one does not know for sure.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay. That's, that's all I'm saying and that's what you need to tell your lawyer.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Okay, I see that you're on the same wave length now.
RENEE MARTIN: You, you see what I'm saying you need to explain to your lawyer when you get to PA, exactly what you know.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Okay.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay? I'm not telling you to tell anybody else.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Right.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay? And if anybody else ever asks you, I wouldn't say anything Joe.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Mmm, hmm.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay? What I'm telling you is, when you get there and you talk to your lawyer, okay and I'm not talking about in hypothetical's with your lawyer, with me everything is hypothetical, okay cause you never know who is listening to the phone.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Mmm, hmm.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Mmm, hmm.
RENEE MARTIN: But when you get there, and you talk to your lawyer everything is on the table the way it's supposed to be, so your lawyer can adequately defend you cause...
JOSEPH KEREKES: Good, good.
RENEE MARTIN: ... he has to know what went on and how.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Cause I know that the hypothetical B person, already has thought of this, ah this story as well and already knows umm, in his smart, in his hypothetically planned way umm, umm, ways out, ya know?
RENEE MARTIN: Okay. Hypothetically, hypothetically person B went to this quote unquote person in questions home, okay?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Yes.
RENEE MARTIN: Did person B, show back up with person A as clean as they were when they left?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Person B, the younger one, raced back to person A, and they, they left.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, but wait a minute, was person B, in the same umm, condition as person B was when person B left person A originally?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Same condition, like what do you mean?
RENEE MARTIN: Ah, dressed condition like clothing-wise.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Oh yes, yes.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, person A, and person B, okay, where are all their clothing from, where, where, would they have hypothetically have put all of that clothing?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Ah, person A was just wearing the normal clothing of the day, and ya know person B, hypothetically, the younger one, probably felt dirty ah, from the smoke probably that touched him and he felt maybe like they would consider him guilty, hypothetically so, he ah, probably ditched it, burned it, cut it up, probably hypothetically, that's what I would do.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, okay but you don't... but person A doesn't know that to be true to fact?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Well yea, person A saw, ya know saw his, saw this person in complete disarray at what he had witnessed and he saw him, dis... dispose of it.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, but what I'm saying was, besides disarray, and smoke inhalation to person B, okay was there anything else?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Umm, I just said that probably, hypothetically that, that person A, since he was in the same vehicle would probably have seen ah, because he was driving...
(Telephone Recording: You have one more minute for this call).
JOSEPH KEREKES: ... would probably have seen person B, ya know get rid of it.
RENEE MARTIN: No, no, no, not talking about that, I'm talking about the condition of clothing, okay? Whether it had dog shit on it, whether it had ice cream on it, whether it had something else on it.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Oh, a person, person, person A was ah, was ah, busy when person B walked back in, sort of sleeping, so he doesnt know for sure.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay.
JOSEPH KEREKES: He had fallen asleep hypothetically, and the other person was in the shower when he woke up.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, and did hypothetically person B, ever see person A's clothes before they were disposed of?
JOSEPH KEREKES: No.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, I, I again I don't know how to impress upon you Joe, because and I'm telling you right now, that I need for you to call. . .
JOSEPH KEREKES: Do you want me to call back?
RENEE MARTIN: Yes, I need for you to call me back.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Alright bye.
RENEE MARTIN: Alright bye.
RENEE MARTIN: Hypothetically?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Mmm, hmm.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay.
JOSEPH KEREKES: And Harlow already knows this hypothetical too and ah, that was what we called ah, ya know the ah, Plan B, ya know?
RENEE MARTIN: Okay. What I'm saying though Joe is when you get up there to see your attorney, and you talk to Brewer, okay? You need to tell him nothing but the truth because the only way that Brewer can defend you is if he knows the truth because what will happen is, and let me explain this to you, okay cause this is just the way the court system works okay?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Mmm, hmm.
RENEE MARTIN: If you tell Brewer a lie, and Brewer tries to defend you on a lie, okay, he's not gonna be able to do it because he's gonna get caught up in catch 22's and he's not coinciding with the statements, ya know what I'm saying? Just things that were said....
JOSEPH KEREKES: Well let me just say this, hypothetically it was done in such a way that there would be no hypo... ya know proof of anything other than what I just hypothetically put, put forth.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, but, my problem is, hypothetically who could have been there prior to this young gentlemen showing up there?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Oh, what I just said is completely... the hypothetical but the umm, probable truth.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, but what I'm saying is, is that...
JOSEPH KEREKES: Oh, you, you, you mean, you mean the ah, unknown 'person that may have hypothetically hurt this person?
RENEE MARTIN: That's correct.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Okay, I wouldn't know about that, because umm, ya know, hypothetically this is all that ya know that I know.
RENEE MARTIN: I know, but that's what I'm saying is, is and what they're, that's what I'm saying, the only thing I'm telling you is when you get up there and Harlow needs to do the same thing, okay?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Mmm, hmm.
RENEE MARTIN: You need to work on a basis with your attorney. I'm not telling you with anybody else, but with your attorney on a basis of, total truth okay? You need to explain to him from get go A to Z exactly what went on, what transpired. . . .
JOSEPH KEREKES: Yea.
RENEE MARTIN: ... what transpired. Do you see what I'm saying?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Well, well why isn't Harlow calling is he with Brice now?
RENEE MARTIN: Yea, yea, he's with Brice now.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Well how do you know that?
RENEE MARTIN: Umm, because I talked to Jim Brice and he said he was going in to see Harlow, he'd call me back.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Okay cool, cool.
RENEE MARTIN: So all I'm saying though is, is that you and Harlow are gonna screw yourself out of an adequate defense but not telling your attorney, not anybody else. . .
JOSEPH KEREKES: By telling him that hypothetical and whatever story I just told you is pretty much the truth, it is the truth.
RENEE MARTIN: Well all I'm saying is, is they're gonna wanna know, I mean, hypothetically was the house on fire when you got there, or when this person got there?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Yes he did see, he smelled, he walked in and then he saw that, yes.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay.
JOSEPH KEREKES: It was very small, is what he, hypothetically.
RENEE MARTIN: Hypothetically when both people, was this when both people drove up or when...
JOSEPH KEREKES: No, no, why do you keep bringing this... he said he heard a sound upstairs hypothetically in this story, and that also umm scared him and he ran out.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay. So person B never actually went all the way into the home?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Person B, you mean who?
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, ah, the, the gentlemen visiting, hypothetically visiting. .
JOSEPH KEREKES: Never, no, no, hypothetically he walked right into where this person was and got scared, he saw the fire, smelled the smoke and heard a loud noise upstairs and ran out.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, now what I'm saying is, is where was person A, while person B was inside?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Umm, I don't know.
RENEE MARTIN: Hypothetically.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Hypothetically there, there, see Renee this is where we don't understand each other because there isn't one, hypothetically.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, there is A and B, A and B went to Pennsylvania, hypothetically.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Okay yea A, Oh A, A being the older one?
RENEE MARTIN: Yea.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Yea that person A, A, at the motel umm, ya know watching television.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, so hypothetically A was at the hotel while this whol'e thing transpired?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Absolutely.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay so hypothetically you don't know that B didn't commit any kind of crime?
JOSEPH KEREKES: That's, that's sorta true, yea, that's true hypothetically I don't know for sure.
RENEE MARTIN: No, no, no, not you.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Hypothetically the, the, the older one does not know for sure.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay. That's, that's all I'm saying and that's what you need to tell your lawyer.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Okay, I see that you're on the same wave length now.
RENEE MARTIN: You, you see what I'm saying you need to explain to your lawyer when you get to PA, exactly what you know.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Okay.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay? I'm not telling you to tell anybody else.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Right.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay? And if anybody else ever asks you, I wouldn't say anything Joe.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Mmm, hmm.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay? What I'm telling you is, when you get there and you talk to your lawyer, okay and I'm not talking about in hypothetical's with your lawyer, with me everything is hypothetical, okay cause you never know who is listening to the phone.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Mmm, hmm.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Mmm, hmm.
RENEE MARTIN: But when you get there, and you talk to your lawyer everything is on the table the way it's supposed to be, so your lawyer can adequately defend you cause...
JOSEPH KEREKES: Good, good.
RENEE MARTIN: ... he has to know what went on and how.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Cause I know that the hypothetical B person, already has thought of this, ah this story as well and already knows umm, in his smart, in his hypothetically planned way umm, umm, ways out, ya know?
RENEE MARTIN: Okay. Hypothetically, hypothetically person B went to this quote unquote person in questions home, okay?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Yes.
RENEE MARTIN: Did person B, show back up with person A as clean as they were when they left?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Person B, the younger one, raced back to person A, and they, they left.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, but wait a minute, was person B, in the same umm, condition as person B was when person B left person A originally?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Same condition, like what do you mean?
RENEE MARTIN: Ah, dressed condition like clothing-wise.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Oh yes, yes.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, person A, and person B, okay, where are all their clothing from, where, where, would they have hypothetically have put all of that clothing?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Ah, person A was just wearing the normal clothing of the day, and ya know person B, hypothetically, the younger one, probably felt dirty ah, from the smoke probably that touched him and he felt maybe like they would consider him guilty, hypothetically so, he ah, probably ditched it, burned it, cut it up, probably hypothetically, that's what I would do.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, okay but you don't... but person A doesn't know that to be true to fact?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Well yea, person A saw, ya know saw his, saw this person in complete disarray at what he had witnessed and he saw him, dis... dispose of it.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, but what I'm saying was, besides disarray, and smoke inhalation to person B, okay was there anything else?
JOSEPH KEREKES: Umm, I just said that probably, hypothetically that, that person A, since he was in the same vehicle would probably have seen ah, because he was driving...
(Telephone Recording: You have one more minute for this call).
JOSEPH KEREKES: ... would probably have seen person B, ya know get rid of it.
RENEE MARTIN: No, no, no, not talking about that, I'm talking about the condition of clothing, okay? Whether it had dog shit on it, whether it had ice cream on it, whether it had something else on it.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Oh, a person, person, person A was ah, was ah, busy when person B walked back in, sort of sleeping, so he doesnt know for sure.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay.
JOSEPH KEREKES: He had fallen asleep hypothetically, and the other person was in the shower when he woke up.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, and did hypothetically person B, ever see person A's clothes before they were disposed of?
JOSEPH KEREKES: No.
RENEE MARTIN: Okay, I, I again I don't know how to impress upon you Joe, because and I'm telling you right now, that I need for you to call. . .
JOSEPH KEREKES: Do you want me to call back?
RENEE MARTIN: Yes, I need for you to call me back.
JOSEPH KEREKES: Alright bye.
RENEE MARTIN: Alright bye.
